Watermarked, banned, and denied

Okay. Good morning, Drew. Morning, Dan. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Drew and Dan in the morning. It is morning. I am Dan. And I am Drew, actually. Yes. And ⁓ we have ⁓ some news items to share and also ⁓ talking about the Apple event coming up ⁓ and whatever else we get into this week on Drew and Dan in the morning. Well, I think first today we have we have news, do we not? ⁓ yeah, yeah, we do have some news. first one I saw was ⁓ New York City banned generative AI in public schools. For how did they do that? Well, it's I don't know, passed a law or something, wrote b I don't know, I'm not sure, but it says it's a essentially a one-year moratorium. ⁓ and it's they said 2K to eighth grade banned. I don't know what two K is. I assume that means like kindergarten or something. ⁓ and then they said high school will be allowed in some limited ways. And teachers will be allowed to use AI to plan lessons, but not to grade them. ⁓ and there's well, there's a lot of articles, but I've got one from AP September 2nd, 2026. This is ⁓ September third as we record. So ⁓ you know, pretty n pretty recent. One year moratorium, part of a broader assessment of how children in the nation's large school system interact with technology. ⁓ They're also adding twice-yearly AI literacy classes for all public high school students. And I believe this is all, yeah, New York City's public schools. So maybe this is a school system ⁓ decision and not like a law or anything like that. But but that's interesting, and it comes sort of on the back of a couple other things, right? There was ⁓ well, there's the last year the state of New York did a ban. Statewide ban on smartphones in schools. Okay. and as of June this year, they announced they are not giving devices at all to the youngest students, which I think is like pre-second grade, if I recall. ⁓ so kindergarten, preschool, maybe. I don't know if that's a thing there, or second first grade anyway. and then the third piece that kind of goes along with that is Los Angeles Unified School District banned AI for all levels, all grade levels. And I don't know how their band works and how the others work, but I think this is probably a pretty good idea. ⁓ I think, you know, I've got well, my father was a teacher, I've got a son who is a teacher, and of course I was a student. So I've got a few different perspectives as well as that of my my some of my kids. And yeah, the kids at school, they all try to use AI to do the work. All of them and there's you know, ⁓ one of my one of my own kids was telling me just recently, he's like, ⁓ yeah, you know, last year I was able to at least use Deep Seek, but then they banned that, they blocked that, and he's just they're always but all the kids there, they're constantly on the lookout for things that aren't blocked. And you know, they they find them and they communicate pretty well amongst themselves. So ⁓ if there's a will or if there's a way, everybody will know it. Yes, I guess. ⁓ that's why I wondered how they how they're gonna do it because I mean I can see how they can do it by because when my kids were in school and and where my wife teaches, all the kids have iPads. So you can for their their coursework. So you can certainly ban it via the iPad, but ⁓ but how do you ban it from use at home, et cetera, et cetera? You know, but it's that constant cat and mouse. Yeah, and I don't know either. I mean, obviously if you have another device and it's not owned by the school or something, you can certainly ⁓ you can certainly circumvent that. but that kind of also plays into, I think we saw some news in the last couple weeks, at least from anthropic, about how they're watermarking all their outputs. ⁓ yeah. And someone says, Well, how do you out watermark your text output? And I I kind of read there, they have a paper about it that explains sort of what they're doing, but the thing I read sort of explained it like this. They say, you know. When Claude is generating a response to something, maybe you say, Hey, tell me about the war of 1812, and it writes you a little paragraph. And then you say, Okay, now I need it in a report form of, you know, five paragraphs and and it has to include something about, you know, whatever, about what resolved the war. And so it writes you a writes you a response. ⁓ as it goes and it's picking each word, right, each time it's looking at the percentages of It's looking at for each new word or each new token, technically, it looks at it has a probability that it thinks, hey, this is the probably the best, most likely word. And depending how it's configured, it might choose the highest prior prior probability every time, or it might choose among the top few. But what they're saying is that when they have you know two options that are almost equivalent, like you have ⁓ We went to the store to buy I don't know. We went to the store to buy ⁓ some ice cream. Or we went to the store to buy a ⁓ vanilla ice cream. Maybe they instead just say ice cream. Or if there's two different words you could use that would be kind of the equivalent idea, it might pick the less likely one some of the time in order to sort of mark that text. So the text itself has no extra There's no special hidden characters in there, and there's not ⁓ extra codes or anything like that. It's still the same sort of output it was going to give you in the first place. It just skews it to be a little bit off of what it would normally pick. Here's Anthropic's ⁓ description, which is far better than mine. ⁓ what says, What is watermarking? ⁓ large language models like Claude work by generating one word at a time. Each time the model decides on the next word, it chooses among A list of potential candidates ultimately selecting the most sensible or likely based on the preceding text. Take the sentence, the weather today was cold and dot dot dot. The next word is very unlikely to be sugary, but the what is quite likely to be overcast or gray. So it would be the weather today is cold and gray, or the weather today is cold and overcast. In most circumstances, it doesn't matter much to the reader which of the two the latter two words the model ultimately chooses. The meaning of the sentence is largely the same either way. In cases like this, the choice is settled by random number. Watermarking uses low stakes choices like these, which occur many times over a piece of generated text, to leave a pattern in Claude's responses. That pattern is detectable to the is undetectable to the reader, but is detectable to anyone who has a key that encodes it. When watermarking is used, choices are still made at random, but the source of the randomness is slightly different, is different. ⁓ Instead of using an arbitrary random number generator to pick the next word, Watermarking uses the key and a few words that come before it to settle what word it should pick. That is, the word that Claude picks are still random, but now one can check the sequence of words and see if it's consistent with the choices Claude would make if it was using the key. If it is, one can pro assign a probability that the text was generated by a Claude. Importantly, it isn't that the model will now always be biased towards overcast or gray, just as with non-watermark text, overcast might be selected in one instance, one sentence and gray in the next. depending on the words that came before. And it's not the case that the watermarking method just pushes Claude to choose a word it wouldn't have considered anyway. For example, it wouldn't make Claude pick a word like Nubilus, an obscure synonym for overcaster gray, that Claude almost certainly wouldn't use under normal circumstances. So the the question I have is is w if that's the watermark, what is the what is the the tool that detects the watermark? Because us reading it, I'm not gonna detect that, right? So there must be a tool available. Has has anthropic or anybody released a tool that that ⁓ that scans for watermarks? Obviously there must be, besides Anthropic itself. Yeah, I know I don't know. There must be some tool. ⁓ they talk about In internal testing, we've seen no impact of watermarking on the content, level of creativity or readability of Claude's test text. And it talks about the synth ID text paper, which introduced the technique. ⁓ Google DeepMind tested this impact by serving a model that used watermarking to a portion of the Gemini traffic, comparing thumbs up and thumbs down ratings. They found no statistical differences or statistically significant differences from the unwatermarked model in terms of what the the people's response is, I guess. So then how do you find out? Yeah, there's various tools online that say, you know, s ⁓ tools that to detect watermarks, but nothing I'm not seeing ⁓ anything from the the frontier models themselves. ⁓ Grammarly's got an eight I AI detector, Pangram, an AI detector that actually works. But those are these are yeah, these are Google search results I just did. But ⁓ I'm not seeing a tool. So they also wanted to address why we're watermarking. ⁓ we're implementing watermarking to comply with the EU AI Act. ⁓ Anthropic, along with several other major AI model providers and around 190 total signatories, signed the EU Code of Practice on Transparency of AI generated content in July 2026. This requires AI system vend providers to use methods of marking AI generated text. We're applying watermarking globally at launch because we don't yet have a durable way to scope it by region. However, we will continue to evaluate different approaches and share updates when we have them. Okay, so how do I check if a piece of text was written by Claude? We are releasing a detection API in private preview. It is currently available to eligible organizations as required under EU law, such as regulators, law enforcement, media, fact checkers, independent researchers, educational organizations, and EU civil society groups. It is also available for enterprises who are similarly obligated to verify watermarking for their own compliance with the Act. We plan to expand access to the detection API over time. On the surface, it sounds like they're don't want to make the ability to check available to just everyone, which I think is a big mistake. I mean, I understand why they probably say, well, if I can see that it's watermarked, then I can just keep me ⁓ monking with it until it doesn't think it's watermarked. ⁓ if I'm the, let's say, the student cheating on something for school. ⁓ But nonetheless, any given person might want to know and if especially if your stuff is getting watermarked anyway. I don't know. That's very annoying. So if you're working on Go ahead. I I I heard a discussion about this, ⁓ I think I was listening to Control Alt Speech ⁓ podcast. Yeah. Where they were talking about this fact. And it's th they kind of made the dis the comparison of ⁓ or I th maybe it was that. I anyway. ⁓ It's like Googling something. Did you come up with this idea on your on your own or did you look it up, you know, using a Google search, right? And it's not that you that if you Googled something, it doesn't mean you didn't research it, right? Or if ⁓ th I think there used to be a ⁓ a debate about, you know, the validity of Wikipedia. Did you look this up on Wikipedia is at a valid source? And so the the throwback now to this to this AI watermarking is if you used AI to to research something Does that mean you didn't research it to yourself, right? And and now if you used AI to just ob obviously write a ⁓ dissertation about the you the war of eighteen twelve, and just copy-paste it, okay, that's that's one thing. But you know, it's not the question of has AI been used for this? It's just has it been used in its entirety or or to a gross margin where it's like this is not your own work. You know, if I Google how to ⁓ you know, solve a s coding problem, does that mean I I didn't solve it myself? Like meh, it you know, I I didn't does that does that track? Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, I yeah, it does. I mean, I I could see, okay, school wants to say, hey kids, don't cheat with this stuff stuff. We want you to actually learn how to do things. But then you're saying too, well, so let's say I use AI to research a thing and it gives me information and maybe it gives me citations that I can check. ⁓ how is that not researching it? Right. Kind of is. It's not researching it the old way. It's not going to a library and flipping through a card catalog and wandering the aisles to figure out where BN23 whatever is. and it's not doing the the less old way of typing it into Google and looking at responses and trying to figure out which ones are not garbage. And but it is It is kind of the same because you can still get garbage responses just like you can get when you search Google. Sure. so I don't know. I'm kind of mixed there. I and then as far as as far as like regular use by regular people, ⁓ you know, not students. ⁓ I think, you know, if I use AI to I don't know, maybe I'm writing a proposal for a contract for something and I say, hey, these are the main high points, kind of write it up kind of like I normally do. You know, and it writes up a bunch of stuff. And then I go through and I look at it. I say, well, that's basically right. ⁓ this is wrong. That's the wrong number. You missed out the part about the clause about how they actually have to pay me. Or, you know, whatever. ⁓ and it makes some edits and maybe I make some hand edits and maybe it makes a few edits that I tell it, you know, did I write the paper? Or was it written by AI? Well obviously AI might have done a lot of work on there, but it was all me driving it, right? And I'm ultimately accountable for what was in it. So and then I someone gonna be upset that they say, ⁓ this idiot made it with AI. Yeah. Th the the other side of that argument or an ⁓ another side of that argument was was let's say you're in ⁓ you speak ⁓ Portuguese as your first language, but you're writing an article in English and you use AI to check your English. Because it's not your first language. Now, did you and so now it's going to get watermarked as an AI as an AI work. And so that there's there's just kind of like many things, there's no perfect answer to this, but ⁓ it's it's kind of where we are in the in the development process or the understanding and the use cases for AI. Yeah, yeah, it really is. So I is there a solution here or what do you think? ⁓ not yet. I haven't I haven't read the text of this EU law other than it says things need to be watermarked. Right, right. ⁓ and they do a they do address one of the questions here on anthropics and I will let me just save this page so we've got it. but it says, Can someone just edit the text to get around the watermarking? And the s answer is to some extent yes. Light editing probably won't remove the watermark completely. A complete rewrite where every word is replaced certainly will. In the latter case, of course, it's arguable whether the text can any longer be described as A AI generated. ⁓ and what does Watermark actually prove? Watermark can only determine that Claude was likely involved with the content at some point. It cannot distinguish Claude wrote this from Claude had heavily edited this. ⁓ how does this differ from AI detection software like Pangrum? I just looked that up. Yeah, that was just one of them. I mean I've never used it. And what do you and what do you know about that one? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because I I don't you know, I don't I don't have a need to look up if something is a is AI generated. You know, it it and it just says, AI detection software uses a different method because the companies that provide it don't have our key. Among other things, those services look at aspects of the text like the subtle and also not so subtle tells that often appear in AI's phrasing. Like, I'm gonna give you the true honest answer here. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, that's interesting. ⁓ but you know, c coming full circle back to the ⁓ Banning of generative AI in public schools, I think, especially in the lower grades, I think that's a great idea. And I can certainly see why schools would need would want a checking device. Yes. ⁓ but at the same time I do think, you know, this is the world we live in and the students need to learn how to use the tools, not just be kept from them. ⁓ so there's kind of two pieces here. Well, when you say you think it's a great idea to ban ⁓ AI in in the lower grades, why what makes you say that? Well I think well, I I don't know if I think it's ban. I think the I think the part that I think is a good idea is I think it is helpful for schools, especially with younger kids, to be able to tell if something was written by AI or not. Because for the same reason, like if you go and I'm teaching math to you and I teach you how to add and subtract and multiply and divide, because these are skills you should have built into you as a person. and then yeah. I expect that you'll mostly use calculators for most things, but when I ask you eight times six, you shouldn't have to go, ⁓ God, I need a calculator to figure out it's forty-eight. You know, you should be able to do some of that stuff just sort of on your own and you should have some basic level of skill. And then yes, of course you should use the tools for all the things that matter and to reduce errors and to make you more efficient. And so I guess I don't know if banning is the thing I'm saying is the right the thing I support, but I I I do think there has to be a way to teach. Teach kids, you know, here's you have to be able to do these th things to some extent. And I know it's the calculator versus the AI is not a really perfect analogy, but ⁓ to some extent anyway, you should at least have a an idea of what it is you're doing. I mean, the thing with the AI is you can have it do all kinds of things, right? You can have it write code, you can have it write a story, you can have it make a picture, but you know, maybe that's not the same as when they say, Well, we want you to, you know. Do this drawing with colored pencils and just send us a picture of it when you're done. But ⁓ we want we don't want you to have the AI generate it because we want you to learn how working with the different colors, you can, you know, ⁓ look, you actually put purple in there to make this person's arm actually look more blue in the white, you know, or whatever. and, you know, and things like that where maybe you need to have something a little bit more tangible to learn the to learn the to get the understanding behind it. And I and I don't know that I have the answer, and I don't know that. specifically banning is the right answer, but I think I think there is I think it's a problem that needs to be solved, I guess. ⁓ so people attempting to solve it, I guess, is ⁓ what I'm in support of. The the the reason I ask is because because I I do support that because ⁓ using AI reduces or all but eliminates critical thinking skills. I think you stop thinking. ⁓ you stop exercising that muscle of of of Critical thinking of of problem solving and you and you don't do that. You just you just punch in to the machine, give me the answer, gives me the answer, you accept that answer with no no background knowledge. So you have to and and you alluded to this, you know, knowing the baseline of of of basic, you know, math operations. And and even if you don't exercise that ⁓ moving forward, at least you you at one point got the baseline. So ⁓ so I do agree. But ⁓ I think we should move on Right. It's like the whole episode. And I guess the other thing I was going to say, ⁓ I'll have one more thing. Okay. ⁓ the you know, as a software developer, you know, I've kind of gone back and forth using lots of AI and then say being extremely frustrated and then come back to far less and even none. ⁓ and you know, the critical thinking, having some underlying knowledge about, you know, the language or the Code in particular, this project, or the architecture, or even likely ways that the architecture may have been built, because you've got some experience with that, serves you better. And I think that comes back to in the end, the tool is best used by someone who knows how what they're doing. Yes. Yes. Well said. Yeah, ⁓ that's great. That's a great news, news item. ⁓ I have no news. Really? None at all. I have news. Okay, okay. I have a news item. ⁓ the ⁓ I was I was ⁓ on a run and I was listening to ⁓ the Tech Brew Ride Home ⁓ podcast and he he and ⁓ he covers various news items and and the last thing in this particular episode was Dyson, the Dyson Vacuum Cleaner Company. Yeah. Or the Dyson Company has debuted a four hundred ninety-nine dollar AI powered toothbrush. And I just I just about just ⁓ my God. You know, we've reached AI power toothbrush. What are you talking about? We've reached rock bottom, right? ⁓ however, stay with me because as I'm running, I'm just like, well, I'm just gonna listen to this garbage. but ⁓ it kind of intrigued me because what it did, what this $500 toothbrush does, is it it has a camera built into the the brush head and ⁓ and also like a water jet. And so it analyzes I think it was twenty eight frames a second as you're brushing your teeth and it identifies points where it it gaps in the teeth and it's analyzed like ⁓ the model has been trained on I can't remember how many hundreds of thousands of data of all these teeth, right? And so does it have a little light or something? How does it see very well in there? ⁓ like maybe infrared, I don't know. I don't know. ⁓ yeah, maybe infrared that would make sense. Either way, it's ⁓ it's been trained on all this dental data, and it will identify gaps or places where where plaque is commonly known to build up, and it will shoot a ⁓ directed charge. And ⁓ I don't know the the makeup of this toothbrush, but it'll it'll shoot a little a little blast of of water or whatever ⁓ at that point in your in your teeth to clean it. So I thought, you know, it's a little ridiculous. Would I buy one? Absolutely not. But ⁓ maybe this is actually ⁓ four hundred ninety nine dollars, you said you said so five hundred five five hundred dollar toothbrush. Yep. Yeah. The dice AI powers. Well, you know, they made us all think they were nuts with their expensive vacuums initially, right? And everyone's like, That's crazy. ⁓ let's buy one. So who knows? ⁓ I mean I don't know, maybe I would like to see I guess I would like to see the evidence, you know, and is it I I guess you could have an AI running a toothbrush and is it my thing's I'll go to technical, right? Like is it can it be can it see well enough in your mouth? Is it gonna make the decision fast enough to squirt the water jet that it's going to get squirted before my toothbrush has moved to a different spot? Well, I think they probably thought of that. Yes. Or does it track or maybe they didn't think of that? You know, I mean I who knows. I don't know. I yeah, yeah. Anyway, those those that's my news item. Interesting. Well, ⁓ if ⁓ if you know Dyson would like to sponsor ⁓ we can test episode. I'm gonna just try to get this episode forward to Bob Dyson. I don't know what his name is. True. Forwarded to somebody there. And I think, you know, we will try it out like on the video. And how do we compare which one is is like how do we compare check if it's working well though? We'll come up with a metric. You know, we'll like chew a bunch of coffee beans and and ⁓ peanut butter and then we'll like we'll each use the toothbrush the Dyson toothbrush and a different one for maybe a minute. And then spit it out, do one swish, and then see what's left in the mouth. Gross. Yeah. It'll be it'll be a great episode. Yeah. Hope you'll all tune in. ⁓ all right. What ⁓ what's next? Well, the ⁓ the big event next week is the Apple Hardware event. ⁓ and next week for us, as we record now on September 3rd. It's September 9th, is the Apple Hardware event, and ⁓ the big news of John Turn is taking over as as Apple CEO. This will be his first event. as CEO and I did a deep dive into John Turnus. ⁓ a little bit of a deep dive, a medium dive. Have you seen the the I did a light? Okay, okay. Well ⁓ we'll see. you've seen Hot Ones, I I assume the YouTube channel Hot Ones where they interview celebrities. You're not familiar. Okay. ⁓ there's I don't think so. ⁓ there's ⁓ so there's YouTube channel, Hot Ones, and they interview celebrities, the host interviews and they and they ⁓ ask them questions about, you know, of course what their what their latest project is, their latest movie or whatever. But then they have they they managed to dig up like a lot of deep history about these celebrities, like random things, you know, like what that they were in a a a band in high school and it was called this, you know, or or whatever. But ⁓ so I did a little deep dive into John Turnus. And ⁓ so this is kind of a news item as well. But he he went to Saint Ignatius College Preparatory School, a graduated high school, ⁓ that high school in in ⁓ 1993. And so I I Googled the ⁓ yearbook photo of Saint Ignatius College ⁓ prep school from 1993. And and this is on the internet. You can you can look at the the yearbook of from his graduating class, and I found his picture. ⁓ and he was actually photographed in the yearbook with Peter Morelli. Have you heard of Peter Morelli? I don't know. I don't think so. No, yeah. The name sounded vaguely familiar to me. ⁓ but so there was John Turnus next to Peter Morelli. And ⁓ so ⁓ Peter Morelli actually, he was ⁓ what was it? He he was at Salesforce, he went to Twitter, he was a senior director of engineering at Twitter, then he went to the VP of Engineering at Lyft, and he's currently the co founder and CEO of BitDrift. ⁓ which I know you guys have heard of. Boy, that sounds familiar. Yeah. So so Peter Morley and John Turner. Yeah. Yeah, what are they doing? they do like ⁓ it's like Dandel An Analytics, I I believe it was. ⁓ but anyway, so ⁓ and then ⁓ John Turnus's senior quote, his quote from his ⁓ high school yearbook was some are born to move the world to live their foot ⁓ fantasies. Wait, say that one again. Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies. To live their fantasies. Wow. That's John Turnus's ⁓ senior senior quote. Yes. Well that that's interesting. I looked and I didn't find that, but I found ⁓ something about his college time. and yeah, I think you know he went to Penn ⁓ for mechanical engineering. And the main thing that I keep finding is his senior project. was basically an assistive ⁓ assistive robotics. It says he and several classmates built the H A N D feeder hand and it says hand stands for head actuated nutritional device. So head actuated nutritional device feeder. And it says it was a mechanical arm slash spoon system intended to let people with quadriplegia feed themselves by moving their head and neck. ⁓ so somehow I I I don't know anything about it. I'd love to get a video or a picture if someone has one, or if someone feels like Googling a little bit more than I did. but also he was on the ⁓ varsity swim team, apparently pretty good at that. And and ⁓ his teammates would describe him as sort of low key, methodical, funny, not a rash decision kind of guy. ⁓ and his old ⁓ coach said that he remembers discovering that he was a Frank Sinatra fan. ⁓ okay. So and then and then I know he was working at a company called Virtual Reality Systems before he went to Apple that basically built VR headsets, which is kind of interesting given the space that ⁓ the ⁓ Vision Pro is in at the moment. But so he's ⁓ has an un said ⁓ colleague described him as having an unusual Engineer slash prototyper kind of workflow. He'd model something a cat in the morning, walk to the company's shop, miller lay the part himself and have some kind of prototype ready in the later in the day to to fool around with. And ⁓ but ⁓ there's more, but that's I think the the interesting early parts that maybe we didn't know about. But now he's taking the helm. ⁓ sorry, go ahead. Now he's taking the helmet Apple. This is his ⁓ third day. Congratulations, John. Hope your third day is going well. ⁓ yeah, what do you see happening? I heard ⁓ Phil Schiller's out. I thought something about that as well. you know what I what I see happening or what I hope to see happening, and and part of this goes way back into the to the mid-90s when I was in high school and ⁓ and owning a Mac or using a Mac, being a Mac fan was tough. It was rough. 1994, 5, 6. Yes. it was not a good time, but I was always a Mac user. And ⁓ and I've always enjoyed that. But the thing that always brings me back to Apple is that Apple is a hardware company. And despite Tim Cook's success with Apple and and how much he brought the ⁓ or grew the the market capitalization of of Apple, I I saw something that was like twenty three hundred percent or something like that. Just huge. Huge. But seeing Apple move more into services, subscriptions, You know, Apple TV and and and I use I I use all these services. but I want to see Apple holding on to that route. And and maybe this is just nostalgia for me, but but Apple is a hardware stumpany, the the the the root of of them being a hardware company. As let's make the most awesome hardware. And I know, you know, and I know Tim like Tim Cook did I mean he did a lot for Apple, obviously growing it like you said, 20 times or something. ⁓ and you know, a lot of that was the sort of the stereotypically Tim Cook way of, you know, let's How can we squeeze everything out of every little piece here? You know, they've you know, have ⁓ you know, ⁓ I don't know how many more SKUs they have now than they used to, but it is a lot. They have many different versions of many different things, and they've got the prior model and then the cheap model and and you know, still selling all those so that they've got something at all the price points and they've got something at for all the skews, and they ⁓ gosh, this thing's making noise. I'm sorry. I muted it and it still does it anyway. ⁓ The but they're pretty good about, you know, in making their products such that the one you want is the one that's up a couple steps from from the price you look at, and and then their release schedule is let's ⁓ let's release this one and everybody'll buy it. And then we'll wait a few months and then we'll release that and everybody'll buy it. And then, you know, they've done just a lot of that and ⁓ you know, also gone into services are heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy. you know, with ⁓ there's Apple TV and there's Apple News and Apple One and, you know, sell everybody a extra ⁓ Apple support. What's the Apple support thing called? Apple Apple Care. Apple Care Apple Care. Apple Care. Apple Care. Yeah. The Apple Care. They've got that all over the place. And they still make everybody buy iCloud because five gigabytes or whatever it is. Is it five gigabytes? Five megabytes? I don't know. They give you such a small amount, it's absolutely absurd. And they should be embarrassed that. So I hope John Turnus is a little bit embarrassed about that and maybe makes that one little tweak because just because it's embarrassing, you know? Yeah. It's it's it's ridiculously low. So I mean, but You know, to his credit, you know, all those things I'm kinda saying them as if they're negatives, but they have also allowed Apple to grow in ways that are just completely unheard of. ⁓ he's had the Tim had the great push toward all the privacy. Privacy first, all this stuff. ⁓ That's very true. Yeah, I do like that. You know, that wasn't really an Apple thing before Tim Cook. Not really. Right. ⁓ I didn't think. I mean not that it w not that not that they were flip the other way or anything, but it it was clearly something he felt pretty strongly about. you know, and conveniently running a lot of services on your device means they don't have to stand up a big cloud service and support that. So I think there's kind of like they won pretty good on that front and I'm sure that had something to do with it also. but you know I I guess there's, you know, what what do we expect to see from You know, the new administration and or what would we like to see? And I guess I would like to see. ⁓ yeah, I would like to see the return to kinda to kind of the hardware focus. I feel like ⁓ I feel like we get a little nickel and dimed on things. and I feel like I know the hardware that they produce is good. it's really good most of it. ⁓ but I also feel like see, I feel like they have a lot of software problems, honestly. Because everything I touch has bugs all the time and they don't get fixed most of the time. And you know, some of them do once in a while, and obviously the ones that affect, you know, millions of people probably get fixed most of the time. But ⁓ Can you think of an example? Not not to call you out, but ⁓ can you think of an example? 'Cause I'm trying to think of an example of of a bug that I run into with Apple software. I know if I call them all bugs. Okay, yeah, here's a bug. My ⁓ my contacts on my phone and my Mac. Are not the same. And they both think claim they're in iCloud. They both claim iCloud is thinking just fine. But I've got user ⁓ contacts on one that aren't on the other, and vice versa. And I don't know why. I'm assuming if I log one of these devices out of iCloud and back in, that'll probably something is gonna go away somewhere. Or I I don't know what's gonna happen actually. But ⁓ I feel like their syncing things have had problems for years. I I used to use their ⁓ synced desktop and documents folders and ended up with a thing where I had a computer that was just constantly saying, ⁓ I have seven hundred gigabytes to sync and it would just sit there for days and be basically useless for days at a time. And then it would get done and it would start again and ⁓ I don't know. And then things got lost or they got worse, they got put in a separate folder called, you know, old desktop or whatever it was called, desktop parentheses two. And then you had this giant divergence of, well, I don't know what things are in which one. And do I want the ones out of desktop two and the things out of desktop one? And it was a huge project to try to get the merged back together again. And so I did not turn that feature back on. so that's that's those are kind of big ones. But I don't know. Every day I think there's like more like paper cut things that are not that big a deal, but they're around and I'm sure. The the thing that comes to my mind, especially with syncing, is between my Apple Watch and my iPhone, the notifications I have to clear notifications on both devices. I clear it on the watch. Still it's still on the w on the on the phone, or vice versa. And ⁓ that that's my big one. And then I used to have my X code ⁓ like the the folder that all my X code projects are in was synced with iCloud. And every now and then I would get this error with X code. It would just like I can't remember what the error was called, but but I took that you know I moved that folder basically to something that doesn't sync with iCloud. I d I did the exact same thing. I did the exact same thing. Mine used to be in my documents folder when it was synced to iCloud and it was just had problems and yeah X code would get confused or sometimes I use source tree. Source tree would get confused sometimes and I I don't know. Ended up just being a big mess and so I took it out of there and ⁓ then later, like I said, I turned off that piece altogether. ⁓ you know, I know this has been a problem for p some people in the past and apparently it's not solved. I thought it was. ⁓ alarms. Alarms on your phone. Do you have anybody have you had any problems with alarms on your phone? One time at work, yes. Yeah. alarm was going off, no sound. Yeah. That's what ⁓ my wife's phone has done every day now for a month ish. But it before that it was working fine. But now it goes off in the morning and by goes off I mean the phone says alarm on it. Yeah. And that's it. And, you know, it's in it might be in sleep mode or whatever, in sleep ⁓ what do you call it? ⁓ profile. Yeah, do not disturb whatever. Yeah. Yeah, like whatever that the the do not disturb one for bedtime is. ⁓ it's called sleep, but it's yeah, and and so it it doesn't make a sound. It doesn't it barely you know lights up. So if you happen to notice it lighting up, I guess. But that's not a helpful alarm and there's not a there's not a fix for that. ⁓ and that's been something we've s you know, seen for a couple of years several years. And I thought it got fixed because it seemed my I had problems with that too, and then it went away and it seemed to be better. But I've seen it again now where my thing will say alarm on it just on the screen as I look over at it and I'm like, ⁓ I woke up, I'm waking up. ⁓ my phone says that my alarm is going off. ⁓ good. I woke up just in time. Nope, that was an hour ago. It's been going. It's you know. ⁓ oops. You know, come on. Can't get the basic function rocket and nobody fixes it. Like I know there's priorities, but that should be I mean, basic functionality working correctly. ⁓ priority. Yeah, it makes me feel a little bit better as an as an independent developer when we're with the bugs that are in my apps. When I look at this trillion dollar company and like you've got bugs in your in your software. ⁓ and you know, granted theirs is ⁓ much more ⁓ complex, but also you have much ⁓ smarter people than I am working on this stuff. So it just seems like sometime. They've got a lot of people there that work there. I don't know, isn't it? Isn't that don't they like a hundred thousand employees or something? Like ⁓ I know it's huge. Yeah. But it's a b it's a big number and you'd think there could be just enough to like maybe ⁓ fix some bugs. But I think like a lot of companies, I think bug fixes Are periodic things that they bash on when it when when the tide gets so high that everyone's about to drown, they'll say, okay, we're gonna spend a couple, we're gonna spend, you know, we're gonna spend all of August working on bugs. ⁓ well, maybe not all of August, but we're gonna for the next two weeks, we're gonna try to get these biggest ones knocked out. And they'll knock out a few and maybe break something else and and then things sit again for another year and a half and they don't have like a They don't have a it seems like I think they don't have persistent teams for most of their features or their apps. Like they don't have like a, ⁓ this is the ⁓ this is the alarm and calendar team. You know, they don't have I don't think they have that. I think they have a, okay, we're putting together U twelve are gonna be on this tier U six are gonna be on this team to do this thing now. And when that thing is done, then they go off and do something else. Those people and there's no one back saying, ⁓ well, we should follow up on this, and ⁓ there's This could be tweaked a little bit, you know. I I just I just ⁓ I mean it's always easy it's easy to say, well, they're a trillion dollar company, f four trillion? I don't even know. Big number company, they should be able to find a way to make this work. And I guess I'm gonna stick with that. Like you can give them some excuses, but honestly, some of these basic things not working, drives me crazy. You know, one of the things I can still complain about with my phone, and this is a daily ⁓ a daily paper cut kind of thing. ⁓ back before my phone, like back when the phones had the home button, right? Yes. If you would push your and have the touch ID and the home button, you would push your put your finger on the home button for a second and and maybe click it and then it goes whoop and you're back on your home screen. And that happened really reliably. Happened when your ⁓ when the phone was just locked, if you took it out of your pocket, if you were on a phone call, it would still do that. Everything was just ⁓ it did that every time. Then they switched to the the face ID and the swipe up thing. But if you're on a phone call now, I don't know. Like if like if I'm on a phone call and let's say also on the map and I wanna edit something on the map, I think I have to like I tap on the map, it's like, ⁓ you're locked. Okay. So I swipe up and I get nothing really happens the first time. Then you swipe up again and now you get back to the home screen. Then I can swipe and go to the thing with the map. It's like I I don't know. It's like it takes like two or three swipes when it used to take one. And you know, the keyboard editing text. Feel like that's still not good. It's better, a lot better than it was, but you know, back in like say iPhone 6 era, it was also pretty good. And they introduced their their AI keyboard initially, you know, like where they would guess what you're trying to write. ⁓ yeah. and kind of broke the initial thing, which the initial thing was very clever. It was this, you know, well, you're typing up you're typing sort of near this letter. And that's a letter that it would make sense for what you're typing. So therefore we're gonna pretend you hit that one. and that one that just seemed to work great. ⁓ and then they took it away and a lot of people complained about it for years, and it was just kind of garbagey for years. And I would use like ⁓ an Android phone in my work once in a while against my preferences. and I would quietly to myself be very happy with how nicely that keyboard worked. And I'm like, ⁓ my God, why isn't my keyboard work this nicely? I don't know. Nobody's paying attention to it, you know. And I I think ⁓ you know, for everyone's focus on getting back to the hardware company, and you know, everybody loves Craig Federigi, but I feel like I feel like software is a problem at Apple. I mean, there's a lot of it, there's a huge surface area, there's so many things that interop with interoperate with so many things, and I I get that there's a trillion ways these things can go wrong, but yet I feel like they should be able to do a better job. than what they have been doing. And they do some things that are so amazing, you know, hard things, like really hard things. But then a lot of things that should be easy just sit there broken. Yeah. Yeah. Well the the idea that you you make good software or hopefully great software to sell great hardware, right? And and that's the idea of vertical integration. ⁓ but when one thing breaks down, whether that's hardware or software, and and maybe we're seeing a a br a breakdown in software, is the the hardware becomes not worth it if ⁓ if it If it can't function on the software. So which is will be a challenge for turn. Well, right. And and I think, you know, the main focus of the software team generally is ⁓ we need new features to sell new phones. And most of the time, you know, if the phone is the main bread and butter, and most of the time these last handful of years, the new features in the hardware are kind of few and far between. You know, all of them are fast enough now. So you get one that's faster, it's like, okay, cool. You know, does it have a better camera? ⁓ probably, but my camera's pretty damn good right now. So what's that gonna do for me? I don't know. You know, so you don't you're not finding as many of these ⁓ hardware features that used to sell the phones because it was like, ⁓ my god, this one's so much better. It's got a bigger screen, it's got a faster everything, it can you know, it's it's four G is faster than the old one and communicates on th for three times as many frequencies and you know, so There there were like good hardware reasons to upgrade things for a while. And now it's we need software reasons because ⁓ you know, even though they give the software to the other phones that already exist, they say, Hey, ⁓ iPhone 27 comes with iOS 27, and ⁓ my God, is it amazing? Check out this stuff. And they have to have a feature to show there. ⁓ and I think, you know, for the software people, it's like work hard, hard, hard on the feature. Try to polish it. fix bugs in it. If there's any time remaining, maybe do some other stuff. You know, but it's like I think I think it's very focused on like figuring out what features they're gonna do the next round and you know the next hardware release. ⁓ so and I mean the word on the street is I don't know what you've heard, but I've heard we're gonna have a folding phone and we're gonna have a touchscreen Mac, maybe with a ⁓ yeah with a with a with a cell modem built in. And ⁓ I don't know, what else have you heard? And maybe maybe a home pod with a screen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's ⁓ that's pretty much what I've heard. ⁓ I'd heard AirPods with a camera, but I think those are right. Those are next for the year for the year is what I heard. Could be. It could be. ⁓ the the ⁓ touch screen Mac, being a person that l loves a clean screen on my Mac, ⁓ I do not like that idea at all. ⁓ I do not I you know my my iPad is my iPad and my Mac is my Mac and I do not touch the screen on my Mac. So to me that does not sound great at all, but it just means I wouldn't buy it. That's listeners and viewers. ⁓ hopefully if you haven't met Dan, you will be able to meet him someday, perhaps at an event where he speaks or ⁓ maybe just bump into him out on a run somewhere. But ⁓ Dan has usually on his person I would say no less than maybe two hundred little white screen wipes. No, no, it's only about a dozen. No, there's no way. That means you gotta be restocking that thing twice a day. No No, but I do clean yes, I do keep screen cleaning wipes. Very meticulous with it and I am envious and also a little bit embarrassed every time we get together because my stuff is never that clean and I always kinda wish it was, but I don't do the work. ⁓ that's what I'm here for. So thank you, Dan. But yeah, I I also am like, well, I there are times when I think touching my screen would be helpful to for some interaction, but not that often. I'm pretty happy to not have it. But maybe I've just been like, you know, sometimes you don't know what you don't know. You know, ⁓ you it you didn't know you needed that my kids would do it. They'll come up to your laptop and be like, ⁓ look, zoom this. You know, zoom this in. And they'll and they're like, ⁓ you're like, no, you just put your cheese Cr cream cheese fingers on my screen, you know? And and now I've covered in cream cheese. So maybe that'll be new Macs covered with cream cheese everywhere. Max covered in cream cheese, the new Apple land. That's great. I mean, is this gonna be a ⁓ you know, Apple has always said, Well, we're not getting rid of we're not gonna merge the out the Mac the iPad and the Mac, but maybe is this Apple working towards merging the iPad and the Mac? They are getting closer together. ⁓ with with the windowing on the iPad. There there is a a a narrowing of the of the gap there. ⁓ but ⁓ but they are still different products and ⁓ and I mean the world runs on iPads, you know, the point of sale. Right. ⁓ my whole company, the schools that we're talking about. Right. Right. So the world doesn't run on Macs. ⁓ you know, as much as I'd love to see it do. It sure doesn't. Th there is so many use cases for an iPad. ⁓ so an absolute one hundred percent merging of them, I don't think makes sense, but they are getting closer together. Yeah, I I think I think there's a you know, some of the things we've heard from Apple about that are, well, you know, that's it's so it's a different product. We want to keep them separate. You know, who wants to touch their screen? I mean, geez, why would you do that? But then, you know, we're definitely merging that direction, moving that direction, like you said, they're getting closer, but Right now I think Apple really likes selling people an iPad and a Mac. If they made one device, they would have to make it enough more expensive so that it feels like you're buying an iPad and a Mac. Yeah. You know, which they could do. I mean they could make an all in one device that is your phone and an iPad and a Mac and it's got like a CPU in your phone and you s put it in a slot and now it's a laptop and you know I I don't know. I mean it's a camera, an iPod and a phone. And a personal communicator. What did he say? Personal sensation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very famous. Yeah, very funny. ⁓ do you expect so do you have any particular hardware expectations out of this September 9th, I think it is, event? September ninth, yes. the the I will be surprised if they don't introduce a foldable phone. I am not in the market for one. I don't I don't find that interesting, but you know, again, you don't know what you don't know. ⁓ I'm not in the market for a new laptop at this point. I'm not a friend of mine just bought the new Mac Studio. He ordered that, is is waiting on that. ⁓ but he's long overdue for a Mac. ⁓ so ⁓ I can't remember how old it is. ⁓ golly. Well, good for him. He deserved it then. Yeah, his home Mac is an Intel Mac, so ⁓ way overdue. ⁓ but ⁓ the a home pod with a screen that Does kind of intrigue me. ⁓ my two home pods at home are the original home pods. So I if there is a new home pod that has a compelling enough ⁓ upgrade, I probably will purchase that. ⁓ just to to see, but we'll we shall see. So touch screen Mac, you're not interested. Foldable phone not interested. I think the word I think there was word too that this hopefully this doesn't make too much noise. ⁓ I think there was word also that this this touchscreen Mac might be like a super Mac or something. Mac Ultra or something maybe where it's got I don't know, something extra or more cool in some way. I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean. is there You know, forgetting about the touch screen part for a second, is there other other features to a Mac that might make it more more palatable to you? ⁓ I wouldn't mind seeing a a Mac with ⁓ cellular connectivity, although the the what is it, the auto join your Wi Fi hotspot from your phone is pretty fast. ⁓ but ⁓ but it would be nice to have it kind of natively built in because I am often places. Yeah, I I feel like on one hand, ⁓ I don't really need it. The hotspot thing works pretty well. ⁓ On the flip side, that means I'm burning batteries down on two devices at a time instead of instead of one, which if you are somewhere where you're stuck without charging for a while, that can be frustrating after a while. yeah, I don't know either. So what about this folding phone? Like, do you even know which way it's gonna fold? Does it is it a book where it folds sideways or is it like a flip phone where it folds up and down? Does it just have one screen inside or does it have an inside screen and an outside screen? Inside screen, outside screen, that would make the most sense. But this, you know, again, this is kind of the thing where, you know, when they debuted the iPod, all we had were the other MP3 players that were you know, that was all this flooded market of MP3 players. And then the iPod came out and sort of answered all the not all the questions, but it it kind of it just redesigned. It's just like, ⁓ this can be so much better than it is. Yeah. So all the foldable phones that I see. don't interest me because there's a crease. ⁓ it's it's too big. I don't play games on my phone, so that's kind of another part that doesn't ⁓ appeal to me. But ⁓ I had a a Mac or a a an iPad mini, which I found that I I ended up using only for reading books. And so does a does a foldable phone make it Yeah, like I I just don't feel like I'm in the market for that. I mean, I don't know. A foldable phone might be a good Book reader thing. I don't know it's hard to say. I know I know a lot of people watch a lot of video on their phone and on their little iPads and things. I don't. ⁓ I mean I do watch some, but I'm more likely to listen to something on my phone and watch something on honestly on the biggest screen I have, which is usually my TV, ⁓ as much as I can. I mean I do watch some video on my computer also, but not not a lot, but maybe I'm the odd one out here. I don't I was thinking about that too. Like what would be like would I be interested in the foldable phone at all and why? And I don't I don't know what it I don't know what problem it solves, I guess. ⁓ maybe Apple will show me what problem it solves. And then I'll be like, ⁓ wow, I didn't even know that was a problem I had. But it turns out I need that thing. And even at twenty five hundred bucks. That's I assume it's gonna be twenty five hundred bucks. I don't know. And then you're gonna add Maybe maybe yeah, it might be 1899. Then you're gonna add, you know, a little bit of a bump upgrade for something, and then maybe a fancy case, and then it's gonna be twenty five hundred plus tax. That's insane. But you can maybe lease it through the leasing program. Yeah, exactly. Which is why I'm still like fifty nine dollars a month for two years. And if Klarna actually approves you, which I've heard is a problem. ⁓ I got two different friends who tried to lease through their the leasing program because the lease it's a zero cost lease. So it's like you pay, you know, whatever you're paying, let's say it was a, you know, eight thousand dollar Mac. In their case, ⁓ one was trying to buy an eight thousand dollar Mac, one was trying to buy a ten thousand dollar Mac or eleven thousand dollar Mac. And in both cases, they these two different people have, you know, extremely good credit. Just impeccable, eight hundred plus scores. They have, you know, their houses are owned free and clear. Their cars are owned free and clear and they have a bunch of them, both people and ⁓ And ⁓ you know, income is good and they didn't get asked questions about income. They didn't get asked for the social security number. but they got told, ⁓ nope, you're denied, we'll send you a letter. And then later they look in Klarna and see, ⁓ your buying power is a thousand dollars. Huh. That's that seems weird. That's seems crazy, right? Yeah. and I I don't know. I have I I ⁓ saw some people writing about this on Reddit. seems like there's quite a few people who have had that experience. So I don't know if it's a problem in how they've set things up with Clarona for the leasing or if ⁓ or if it's if it's on purpose. one person said that they couldn't complete the transaction until they unlocked their transunion ⁓ credit report. You know, because you can lock your credit up report so people can't pull it without Like you providing a pin or something. Right. and so that makes it sound like they pulled that. ⁓ on the other hand, doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for the people that did get approved for like big, big, big ones like that. Because I I don't I don't I don't want to lease a phone, but I might lease a Mac. ⁓ but what I was saying is it is a zero cost lease. So like you whatever you pay over the let's say twenty four months or whatever term you pick, the buyout price at the end is the original price minus your payments. So you're not paying extra to do the lease. It's just you're paying it slower. And if and ⁓ and there is a tax advantage in that if you sell the like if you don't buy the phone at the end and you switch to a new one, ⁓ you pay tax on your payments on a lease, not on at up front. So if it's let's say ten thousand dollars, you don't have a number that's ten thousand dollars plus tax and then work down from there. You start with ten thousand dollars and then maybe have a payment of two hundred dollars a month. And your $200 gets taxed at whatever your tax rate is ⁓ for ⁓ sales tax. So that means you only end up paying tax on maybe half the price of the computer instead of the whole thing, which which, you know, that's real money. ⁓ but there's there's a support article from Apple. I don't know if it's a support article, but there's an article from Apple that talks about you know the sorts of information they share with Klarna for your. for them to evaluate your credit worthiness and they talk about your recent history f with ⁓ Apple Media Services, like your recent payments and purchases with Apple Media Services, which I I assume that means like iTunes or something, or does that count App Store? I'm not sure. It probably doesn't count things like Apple Care. But then it also talks about the credit card that's linked to your account or something about for the three for three years or something. I'm I don't know. It was a little bit vague to me, what it might be, but I was trying to figure out if there's how is a I was asking people on Reddit, well, the people that did get approved, like, ⁓ have you used Klarna before? 'Cause some people thought, ⁓ maybe it's because they had a prior relation relationship with Klarna and some of them didn't, but they still got approved for big numbers. And then ⁓ I also said, Well, do you have an Apple card? But the two people I know that got denied with for big numbers were both have Apple cards, zero balances, they pay everything off every month. ⁓ And but that didn't so that and that didn't seem to make a difference. And some other people didn't have one of those. ⁓ you know, thought about well, maybe it's developer or not developer. Maybe that makes a difference. And didn't seem to make a difference either in terms of who got approved. So I I don't know what the rhyme or reason is. if anybody does, that would be great. Just let us know in the comments or any other way you can think of. ⁓ but I don't know, because the whole thing feels kind of like a bait and switch because they put it on there as ⁓ you can, yeah, of course you could finance your nine hundred dollar phone, but you could also finance a you know, you look at your ⁓ five Ultra Max Studio with ⁓ two terabytes and the more the bigger GPU CPU combo core combo and two hundred fifty six gig of RAM and I think the number's like eleven thousand three hundred dollars. Yeah, I think you can actually max that thing out over twenty gram. I think you can, yeah. But that would be but the can but but the configuration I would like, which is the one I just said. Sure. Eleven thousand three hundred and which says on the thirty six month plan is like two thirty five a month. Sounds very reasonable for for something I'm paying over time. ⁓ I mean for zero for zero percent financing, assuming that was something you wanted to buy ever, right? That's the I mean if it was something you would ever buy, then that's a pretty good way to buy it. ⁓ or not buy it, I guess, at least it. But but the point is it says you could do this, two thirty five a month. Well, I got denied. My other friend got denied, my other friend got denied. A whole bunch of people on Reddit got denied. ⁓ yeah. A lot of people got ⁓ everyone almost every everybody I've actually talked to has been denied, but apparently some people on Reddit have not been denied. so I don't know. I don't know what I don't know what's what with that, but ⁓ but it feels like a dating switch because like if you say, Okay, people I know that have like, you know, the best credit in the world and great income and great assets and have no no negative mark anywhere, they get denied and when they check the thing it says you have a thousand dollars available purchasing power. It's like, well, what does that do for anybody? Well, it doesn't do anything for Apple either. So Apple either. So why would Apple do that? Unless like the whole point is like, ⁓ well, now I'm excited about this lease and ⁓ John, I didn't get it. Well maybe I'll just whip out the credit card and set that on fire. I don't know. That doesn't seem that doesn't seem that's not sustainable. That's No, it's n it's not. And ⁓ you know, and like my first knee jerk when I hear Klarna was like, ⁓ yeah. ⁓ like that's isn't that the pay in three or pay in four place, right? One of those places. I feel like it's one of those and I this is probably gonna be sound judgy because it probably is. But my feeling about it was always that it like, ⁓ these are for people who can't really pay for the thing they're buying. Right. It's be with if you have bad credit, then maybe Clarence for you. Yeah. Maybe that's it. Maybe you have to have worse credit. Maybe I don't know. Right. ⁓ but I also don't know, I mean, I don't think I don't know how Apple I mean Apple doesn't make any money on that deal except for the fact that they get to ⁓ sell the devices, which I think as device prices going in crazy expensive with RAM and SSD prices being very expensive, ⁓ you know, that is probably a pretty big concern for them is keeping hardware rolling. ⁓ so I could see that okay if they get people doing these leases, you know, that $230 a month sounds a lot better than eleven thousand three hundred dollars. You know, and a similarly configured M3 Mac Studio, M3 Ultra Mac Studio with 256, I think was under five grand like last year. Yeah. You know, and now we're looking at the next version of it, but now it's eleven. And that's almost entirely due to Well, we know who to blame for that. Yes. We do. We do. And I I personally blame Gemini. Okay. And I blame Sam Altman personally. I think he did it mostly. And ⁓ certainly NVIDIA. I I blame ⁓ this product, this service being used to produce mostly trash so that we can raise prices on the tools that we use every day to try to produce everything and things that are not. And they say that next year's supply is pretty much already bought out. Yeah. Which means I don't think we'll see prices come down next year. Which means they maybe they're gonna still go up, which means hey, maybe eleven thousand dollars is a fantastic price. And like, you know, that same thing next year might be twenty-five thousand. I don't know. Maybe it's maybe we're at the beginning of the end of people owning individually owning hardware generally. I don't know about that. But ⁓ but it is it does go back to the you know, the the price that you pay today, if it's worth it to you today, if you need this product today to to create, do live on on this device. Then then buy it today. Then you have to buy it. But also. Yeah. But also understand that that ⁓ that technology evolves very quickly and and in a couple of years this will be obsolete or it'll be old hardware and there'll be new hardware. But you just what is it worth to you today? Will it do what you need it to do and hopefully buy you a little bit of time in the future that you can still produce with this ⁓ piece of hardware? Right. And if it's worth it to you, then it's worth it. Well, r if it's worth it, it's worth it. All right. I think Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think with that, yeah, ⁓ anything else to say about ⁓ John Turner's future Apple. I feel like we kinda went a little round in a big circle here, but ⁓ sure. I I'm excited for it. Honestly, I'm excited for it. I I ⁓ you know, I think Tim Cook did a great job. ⁓ I again want to see Apple ⁓ return to or c continue focusing on great hardware. ⁓ and like you say, ⁓ improving the software is necessary. for that great hardware to move forward. Agreed. All right. Well, thank you everyone today for listening or watching. And again I'm Drew. I'm Dan. Have a great day. Bye.